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There seems to be two descriptions of non-duality:
1. Recognition of one’s true nature as Self/Atman/Pure Awareness/Consciousness and with that seeing that mind and all thoughts & perceptions are illusory and not “real”, including the thought “I” and perceived sense of “I am”. With recognition of true nature comes recognition/acceptance/surrender to the truth that all things – thoughts and perceptions are the Self/… manifesting and therefore is non-dual by nature and definition.

2. The perception/experience of subject-object disappears and there is no “boundary” Between perceived and perceived and no sense of “I” or “I Am” ( though I question this – see below “test” ) and this is called non-duality though I prefer to call it unicity.

In both cases Awareness is required as primary – to be aware of and as Mind/Thought in the first case and to be aware of the experience of no sense of I and unicity in the second.

Hypothesis:

Both are not mutually exclusive or mutually necessary/implied/required:e.g. one can have direct recognition of true Self and not have an experience of unicity.

Once can have an experience of unicity and not recognize truth of true Self.

Correlation is not causation – and I highly doubt most of the posters have direct experience.

Test:
If I ask one who recognizes their true Self if they exist, they would answer: Yes and No:

No, because true Self is beyond space and time and therefore cannot be said to exist: Existence defined as being in space and time.  Nisargadatta often answers from this perspective, e.g.:  “I was never born and will never die”

Yes, as the apparent manifestation of mind-thought-created external reality and thought “I” and sense of “I am” which is required to/is used to answer the question, exists in space and time, yet all of this arises within the Self – beyond space and time. Yet these are thoughts only and are illusory and in reality, do not exist.

If I ask one who is experiencing unicity, they would answer Yes.

Lastly, the experience of non-duality through unicity is just that. An experience and therefore Awareness is required and primary. So, can one have the experience of unicity and still not recognize their true nature as Self?

1 + 1 != 2

https://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/concepts/anatma.asp

“Since the Self can never be proved objectively, it always remains a mystery to the human mind and a subject of speculation, skepticism
and conjecture.” I would add that the mind, if quiet enough and “open” enough and willingly surrendered to/accepted the truth of Atman, can get a vague sense of it by deduction – e.g. a foot print in the snow may indicate a foot and therefore a person was there – but one cannot know more than that and cannot see the person who made the step. Or pure energy cannot be seen – but one can see light.

I am “new” to Realization territory and am “just getting my sea legs” and still have noob mind.

I source all the information and answers that I need directly.

In my case, while Realization of true Self occurred 2 weeks ago, I have been practicing for 25 + years (though I formally stopped for the last 12).

Now, I still see the thought/sense of I / I am arise when for example someone asks me something – although I don’t think about it and do not need to create the I in order for action to be carried out.

It is like an organ grinder’s monkey – asleep next to the organ grinder until you offer it a peanut then it wakes up, grabs the peanut east it (or whatever) and goes back to sleep.

There is no identification with the sense of I am.

And yet if you asked me am I do I exist. I would have to say yes from that perspective and there would be something there to answer the question.

Do you have experience with this or do you know others?  Do they still have the sense of I am arise for the convenience of answering ego type questions, but then it basically goes back to sleep or doesn’t bother them very much.

My mind is mostly still or empty most of the time.

But people in the ND forum keep talking about the loss of ego or ego annihilation or loss of sense of I or I am.

I have dis-identified with the ego that is for sure, but I would say the ego doesn’t actually go away. It’s more like a little monkey that sits next to me and goes and does stuff when I ask it to.

So, I must conclude that:

1. Ppl are not speaking from their own personal experience (what a shock! jk)
2. The term death, loss, etc. is pointing to dis-identification with the I/ego – which I bet could feel like “death” – though for me it  was gradual, so I hardly noticed when the dis-identification took place, although it did appear as an actual physical experience.

I also still practice following the meditation I/who am I in focusing on the feeling of that electric vibration in my body and focus my attention. I expect this to deepen as time progresses.

I have your ability to play songs in my head and listen to them pretty much note for note exactly as they are recorded –  I’ve used that to try and avoid pretty much everything else in my life that was annoying or unpleasant. But now I don’t  let that happen. I just stay quiet in my head and focus on the feeling of the buzz, breathe and bell and feeling of “pure awareness-lite, less filling taste great! that fits “inside” my head and I can walk around semi-normal while “abiding in the PA. “

Think Griff’s head – the universe in place of his mind – but it fits under a ski cap in MIB III

Though I actually don’t like that term “abide” which implies separation: the here sitting in that over there. Ugh.

However, I’ve had experiences of pure consciousness and pure awareness that were what I called the vast vast vastness – of where it was literally infinity, and I was appearing in it and It’s more “convenient” to carry the PA-lite around with me when I have to go shopping and stuff.

Plus the energy wife calls The Exuberance like having it turned up to 11.

That happened recently – prior to the Realization. I think it got turned up so high in order to work through and burn through stuff very quickly in prep for the Realization that was coming. So I had three intense experiences of pure awareness, combined with high exuberance – up all night all the cosmic stuff . Fortunately, now it’s ramped down and I’m perfectly happy with what it is it – I get a few hours sleep – write the rest of the time or meditate and rest while kitties sleep on me.

I don’t watch anywhere near as many movies as I used to. I read more or write now.

So I’m reading a lot of things that I used to read  – I Am That, McKenna books plus new things as well. Apparently right now it’s up for me to work on breath – 4 different people have told me in my life right now I need to work on breath, so OK got it.

Awake about 1 AM couldn’t sleep because of cat positioning came downstairs read a little bit and then slept a little bit and then meditated for probably an hour, hour and a half off and on which is really good. Finally woke up around 5:30 5:45 got up for a little bit better.

I am wondering if the flared awareness will be coming back or if the awareness light as I call it which is around all the time and seems to be the natural state is the extent.

Yes, I seem to miss it a bit as I can get more done more quickly or directly in the flared awareness.

Did enjoy meeting G. last night and look forward to more discussions with him. I’m not quite sure what we’re going to be talking about. I wonder if there’s some collaborative effort between us that we could write maybe a book or a series of articles.

It might be interesting to see the contrast between one who kind of came about it naturally, and happened over a long period of time and one who didn’t work traditional search and seeking and approach

I’m 63 and could retire, but then my Goddess, my wife asks – and do what? So, for now, I keep my corporate job writing and recording technical computer training material. It’s fun, easy, pays well and the people I work with are cool – I work from home and it gives me something to do while the cats nap.

But, to the point, I do have three things I want to do “in retirement”

1. Is publish something I wrote. I even have a working title – “Being No One, Going Nowhere” I don’t consider a blog I set up and write to as being published (You know that ‘Nemo’ is Greek for No One 😉 . I wrote a lot in 2002 – 2008 – some if it strong and good most of it chaotic blend of half-in half –out ND/D– but there are gems in there like this:

One Day

On a day that may have come and gone
or never was or never can be
a bird may be singing,
a raindrop slides down a window
a plate breaks
a cat brushes your leg
you pick up your keys
or turn on a light
and
you will forget to remember to be you
and
in that moment, everything will change even as nothing changes
you will be you no longer
but ever more so

Emerged spontaneously pretty much as you see it.

Agreed – I am seeing more and more that the ego fades or “gets out of the way” or becomes a small little servant waiting to be asked to do something: When it fades and the Pure Awareness (PA) seems more “direct and stronger” ( nicely put by the way, spot on,  I totally agree It does not get ‘stronger’, the veils of mind/ego become less  and it shines through more noticeably, of course PA never changes) then when a “question arises” – the mind works to help craft the language and concepts. E.g.: “What is the meaning of life – (instant reply) Service to others.”
And it seems to play a part in understandings and knowing – conceptually – which seems to be a required(?) aspect of this manifestation, at least. I’m still examining and inquiring into whether any actual understanding/knowing occurs in the mind or if that is happening more in the PA via the mind. Of course, it’s all PA.

While I have 20+ years conceptual clarity mixed in with a few glimpses of Pure Awareness, I have (what time is it…?) 10 days of actual experience, and 60+ years of ego has some inertia in it. So pointers and such are getting clearer and clearer.

Yes, less obscured, and more noticeable when not in meditation. I have four “reminders” the ringing in my head (the bell), the breath, the electric aliveness in my body (the buzz), the visual field of graininess (in semi-dark rooms, it’s there in lighted rooms, but way too hard to notice, though that has started to be more noticeable)  -these four are constant companions and reminders. I take them as the manifestation or “footprint” of PA in human form. But IDK – still working on describing it and its purpose. As I consider most self-referential internal narrative as toxic waste by-product of PA in human form. IDK LOL

Quick terminology thing. I like “Pure Awarenss” thought “pure” is redundant of course and currently have a small minor hindrance using “Consciousness”, as consciousness to me implies some form of cognition. But I am getting more and more OK using consciousness. Another poster used – it’s all “objects appearing” and I have an issue with that as “Object”  implies a subject to be aware of- but maybe I’m being too nitpicky and pedantic –a Vasana I have from being a teacher or what contributes to  me being a good teacher. Anyway…PA works well as a pointer because it is harder to reduce it to an “concept-object” in the mind.

I’ve thought about posting in reddit – “What is your favorite and least favorite pointers and why?”
Everything is a pointer, of course, but some are more pure or closer to truth or more useful, and some less.

Yes, I get the “light coat of self” – excellent observation – and here aspects of the PA are more and more noticeable in “day to day life when I go outside”  and I can see that becoming more of the foreground.

Playing such an instrument in service. I get chills of compassion and love just thinking about it.

#2 in retirement is to assemble an acoustic guitar.

#3 is volunteer in Hospice – My Goddess’s mother died in the house here recently in hospice care and the hospice folks here in North county San Diego were Amazing. I’d like to give something back and pass it on.

As my wife would say – that’s a lot of words. But this becomes part of my daily diary work.

It’s early am here and I’m up and the PA is more noticeable; I can see the allure of “I don’t need to meditate” as the PA shines through more and becomes the natural resting state.

So, to your point – I’m off to meditate.

Going to a Friend’s Party

Going to J. and J.’s party tonight. It was amazing.

Very much like Bradley Cooper in limitless.

It was masterful pristine. He went to say when to say it I was relaxed calm.

I was witty and clever and irreverent to just the right degree. When necessary redirected  conversation to lighter topic when it got too heavy was honest about Justin and Jason to the sales guy talk to 13 or 14 different people.

It was amazing to be able to just shake hands and introduce myself.

and go  from there and it was easy to find something to talk about from how do you know Justin and Jason to whatever.., where are you from what brought you to SD…

Being warm and genuine and truthful and honest.

And I was so high when I left, I used to use a lot of drugs to feel like that just to get there.

Frankly, I was stunned how easy it was effortless calm relaxed.

Definitely some people with attracted to, and most people is neutral with and a couple had really not good energy and I really noticed that.

And stayed away from them typically seemed to be women with heavy bodies.

I can honestly say I enjoy myself had a good time and might actually look forward to doing something like that again.

It’s a little weird that I won’t see those people again anytime soon, so that’s a part of it but it’ll be interesting to go to a party where I know everybody and see how that goes.

There were some initial – I wouldn’t say stress so much – more  a little tightness about how it would all play out.

And clearly there’s nothing to worry about.

Just show up.

This is easily one of the most clear indicators and pointers to a significant massive personality shift.

There’s no other way to put up with that.

December 1, 2022

I can appreciate the exquisite ecstatic agony of crafting a pointer to nothingness, by negating and contradicting concepts invented to describe something-ness.

In a sense it reminds me of Quantum Physics- how Einstein, Bohr, Heisenberg, et al, described a universe that cannot be known or completely or accurately measured, using only mathematical and statistical symbols.

Here, the ecstatic agony is to craft a pointer as a story as well as story as a pointer. This arose decades ago spontaneously & just a moment ago:

One Day

On a day that may have come and gone

or never was or never can be

a bird may be singing,

a raindrop slides down a window

a plate breaks

a cat brushes your leg

you pick up your keys

or turn on a light

and

you will forget to remember to be you

and

in that moment, everything will change even as nothing changes

you will be you no longer

but ever more so

And aphorisms, one of my favorite vehicles:

You can’t make it happen, you can’t prevent it from happening.

• this works both inside and outside.

Awareness As, not Awareness Of.

• paraphrasing Steven Norquist.

Also see Franklin Merrell Wolff’s book: Philosophy of Consciousness without an Object. “Consciousness without an object Is” Is primary.